Off The Track

Tasmania specific bushwalking discussion.
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Tasmania specific bushwalking discussion. Please avoid publishing details of access to sensitive areas with no tracks.

Re: Off The Track

Postby Ent » Tue 12 Jan, 2010 3:46 pm

Um? Err?

1. Personal opinion on censorship of maps is this a bad thing, full stop, no point arguing with me as my mind is made up. The role of Tasmap is to ensure that the best geographical information is available and not to be a censorship arm of some pressure group. I am rather confused when people demanding tracks be remove then criticise people for not knowing where they are thus requiring rescue. A good example is the removal of the Truganini track at Cradle from the maps. In very bad weather it probably was the best escape route down but now this information has been censored so if anyone falls off Hansons Peak in high winds and ice conditions then Parks better go looking for cover, especially given their inability to get the chain put back.

2. I really struggle with "I know therefore I am an expert therefore I will be a gatekeeper" approach. When I started bushwalking over twenty-five years ago information was freely shared and it is quite remarkable with huts that the people building them encourage other people to enjoy them, very against user pay so beloved nowadays. This egalitarian approach is very Tasmanian and my nature rebels against the gatekeepers and brings the question to my mind if many are bringing non Tasmania (read non rural values) to the debate by holding tightly on to information as information is power. Sounds very big end of town logic to me. Greed is good, information is power, etc.

3. Does it really matter is my final point. Example the LWC went to Western Bluff this weekend but as track information was delightfully vague so the approach was head up the hill until you reach the top. Result eleven people effectively making a new path. Given that the area is forestry means it is not exactly highly sensitive but still made for harder going for the walkers and plants under the feet. I am sure people are using Google Earth to spot features of interest and then targeting them so what is the great secret? Also hunt around and you will find the information in various books and leaflets so why not consolidate it? In a thread recently locked it was amazing how much information was in the public sphere of knowledge to what would be considered a remote area. Also buried away in the Hydro are extensive surveyor maps and notes as in the sixties the area was well covered by surveyors. I personally met at Christmas time a person that held the stick for the surveyor and it was amazing where he got to thus making a mockery of "never ever done before" statements so beloved by "remote area" expeditoners. Um? Hogwash! Bushwalkers lost a lot of information when the Conservationist movement declare war on the Hydro. Are we going to see censorship of Google Earth as photo resolutions are getting better and better similar to the demise of the 1:10,000 maps.

As for this site, its rules are its own so users are bound to follow them or incur the wrath of the moderators. It is just very strange that secret societies operate by PM with selective sharing of information so there is a dichotomy between the public stance and the practical stance of this site. Weird thing to me is I went to Western Bluff via an off track route and came back via a tracked route but because the track does not appear on any formal Tasmap should I not post the route even though most of the track follows log haulage routes that will become active again when the area is next harvested?

It gets all too hard for me to understand the semantics of the debate and one day a site will start with GPS routes posted and short of a Stainlistic display of Chinese scale censorship by the mandarins in Hobart it will become an overnight success. The crazy thing that Parks face is they have the power to lock people out of a sensitive area but do not have any resources to police this plus in order to lock an area they need to make the co-ordinates public which brings the rubber neckers flooding to the area. Parks is in an impossible position so have come up with the US miltary approach type of logic "if you do not tell they will not ask" or in this case, "do not say exactly and hope people will not figure it out". As the printing press broke the power of the Papal censorship so will, and has already, the internet to withholding geographical information. This site rule might be blowing against the wind despite good intentions. Come to think of it is not another track to a remote place paved by good intentions :wink:

Surely the best approach is educating bushwalkers into the fragile nature of the environment that they venture rather than this hodgepodge of minimal or misinformation? I am with the starter of the this thread on that matter.

Cheers Brett
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Re: Off The Track

Postby PeterJ » Tue 12 Jan, 2010 5:25 pm

Brett wrote:........When I started bushwalking over twenty-five years ago information was freely shared....

But not on the internet back then

Brett wrote:.....It is just very strange that secret societies operate by PM with selective sharing of information.....

Well I guess it is partly up to individuals to decide how much information their conscience will allow them to share publicly. If there is no PM option then the information doesn't get distributed to anyone apart from close friends.


Brett wrote:... one day a site will start with GPS routes posted.......

There are at least 3 of these sites already operating that I know of.
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Re: Off The Track

Postby corvus » Tue 12 Jan, 2010 7:17 pm

Jees Brett ,

Mate what did you eat for breakfast this morning? Brett I do agree with you to some extent but I will take you on a really good walk(soon) that transverses a sphagnum bog area that would be destroyed if numbers were increased to any extent by an open notice track note and see if you still believe that all tracks should be open slather to everyone who reads a track note or guide JMO
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Re: Off The Track

Postby alliecat » Tue 12 Jan, 2010 7:22 pm

Oh no, something has gone wrong with the world... I agree with pretty much everything Brett said! :shock: :lol:
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Re: Off The Track

Postby Son of a Beach » Tue 12 Jan, 2010 8:37 pm

corvus wrote:Jees Brett ,

Mate what did you eat for breakfast this morning? Brett I do agree with you to some extent but I will take you on a really good walk(soon) that transverses a sphagnum bog area that would be destroyed if numbers were increased to any extent by an open notice track note and see if you still believe that all tracks should be open slather to everyone who reads a track note or guide JMO
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I think that all tracks should be open slather for everyone who reads a track note or guide (and is up to it). That's why I think that limiting the number of (and/or nature of) such notes/guides is one way to help protect such areas.

I have no problem with sharing such information with those who ask for it, in the same way it has always been done in the past, but posting the information publicly where it can be 'Googled', or even found accidentally is something I'd like to limit. This is a bit like posting an article in Wild magazine with full details of how to get there, or on a public notice board in the city mall. This is not the same as sharing information in a person-to-person way, like it always used to be done.
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Re: Off The Track

Postby corvus » Tue 12 Jan, 2010 9:03 pm

Avoid posting detailed information on accessing sensitive areas without recognised tracks to public topics, but rather use private messages, email, or other non-public means to communicate such information instead. Feel free to ask questions about such areas publicly, so long as the post includes a reminder of this rule to get answers privately only.
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Son of a Beach wrote:
corvus wrote:Jees Brett ,

Mate what did you eat for breakfast this morning? Brett I do agree with you to some extent but I will take you on a really good walk(soon) that transverses a sphagnum bog area that would be destroyed if numbers were increased to any extent by an open notice track note and see if you still believe that all tracks should be open slather to everyone who reads a track note or guide JMO
corvus


I think that all tracks should be open slather for everyone who reads a track note or guide (and is up to it). That's why I think that limiting the number of (and/or nature of) such notes/guides is one way to help protect such areas.

I have no problem with sharing such information with those who ask for it, in the same way it has always been done in the past, but posting the information publicly where it can be 'Googled', or even found accidentally is something I'd like to limit. This is a bit like posting an article in Wild magazine with full details of how to get there, or on a public notice board in the city mall. This is not the same as sharing information in a person-to-person way, like it always used to be done.


Nik,
So be it all tracks accessible to all especially to tax payers :)
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Re: Off The Track

Postby tas-man » Fri 07 May, 2021 1:08 am

A "Bump" to this old topic - I was on a walk to Twisted Lakes a few weeks ago to check out the fagus, and the weather rapidly deteriorated as our group reached the exposed ridge heading south from Hanson's Peak. We had planned to return to Dove Lake via Hansons Peak, but one of our party was struggling in the wet and extremely windy conditions, so we elected to descend as quickly as we could to the Dove Lake circuit track via the old Truganini track. This saved the day and got us all out of the very exposed conditions on top. A few of us "oldies" fortunately still knew where the track was, and we discussed the fact that people caught out in rapidly changing weather should be aware of this escape route which is no longer is shown on the day walks maps. I had a dig through my map collection and found my 1982 Cradle Mountain Day Walks map that still has the old tracks marked. I have scanned it and am posting it here, but if the majority consider that these old (but previously published) tracks should not be made available, let me know what you think and I will remove it.
(Map removed, but requests for a copy via PM will be considered.) Thanks for the feedback, it was a difficult one to call.

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Re: Off The Track

Postby MrWalker » Fri 07 May, 2021 8:02 am

If people find out about this then everyone will be doing it. It makes a really nice circuit walk over Hansons peak without having to climb the peak twice. It would be great to go to Twisted Lakes or Artists Pool then back that way, or even go round Marions Lookout - Face track and down there.

Of course it depends how easy it is to make your way along that track and whether it is easier to bash through an overgrown track than climb back over Hansons peak. But the circuit options make it tempting.

If the map is not removed right away I suspect lots of people will use it.
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Re: Off The Track

Postby Nuts » Fri 07 May, 2021 8:56 am

Tricky one.

There's no arguing the fastest descent can be a big help with an injury or emergency.

But that track doesn't have the best alignment, is rough, and nowhere near the standard of other local tracks.
For possibly one true 'emergency' a decade helped by the track v's those who break something or go missing trying to use it in the meantime?

If it again became well known, the track probably can't be left as it is and would need to be upgraded to fit with parks planning/ legalities.

Via Twisted Lake/ Lk Hanson probably isn't a lot longer overall and additional exposure is minimal.
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