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Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Fri 20 Mar, 2020 9:11 pm
by ILUVSWTAS
It certainly isn't.

A landing at Melaleuca would have meant an extra 2 minutes flight time and would have probably been a better place for them to land if there was a "situation" as there is resources there.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 1:08 pm
by Azza
ILUVSWTAS wrote:It certainly isn't.

A landing at Melaleuca would have meant an extra 2 minutes flight time and would have probably been a better place for them to land if there was a "situation" as there is resources there.


So really it just comes back to they are either lying or poor flight planning.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 1:34 pm
by ILUVSWTAS
Seems pretty bleeding obvious huh Azza....

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 1:50 pm
by Azza
Yup. I also think if your the sort of person who can afford your own a helicopter, with all the maintenance and fuel costs to keep the thing,
you can probably cop the fine on the chin and say next time you'll get a proper permit.
But I also think they'd rather pay more money to a lawyer just so you can say we did nothing wrong.

If they do get pulled up for it, it'll be interesting to see who cops it.. I imagine the blame game between the company and its customers could get interesting.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 2:06 pm
by north-north-west
Azza wrote:If they do get pulled up for it, it'll be interesting to see who cops it.. I imagine the blame game between the company and its customers could get interesting.


If the company organised the "expedition", it's their responsibility to make sure all bureaucratic requirements are met.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 2:26 pm
by ILUVSWTAS
Yeh it is an Interesting one. I do agree that sadly the fines are likely to be pocket change to these types.

The website seemed to suggest it's the clients that run the trips they just have experienced pilots on hand to help with any issues that arise.

Unfortunately PWS are dealing with it behind closed doors. It would be nice if they were more transparent but then again this is the Tasmanian gov were dealing with so yeh good luck there.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 2:41 pm
by Nuts
The claimed reason for not landing at Melaleuca is about the only thing that sounds legit.

If they are lying they breach 'guidelines' for WWHA overflights. (Does a fine even apply?) A conservation issue.
If it was poor planning that's a different issue, if an issue (with CASA or, heli-enthusiasts. meticulous planners.. or some such?)

It doesn't sound very well planned to have to land at all, maybe some of those choppers shouldn't have left on that leg?

PS. I'd imagine this incident is the very least of their concerns right now

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 3:44 pm
by north-north-west
Loss of communication amongst a quarter of the fleet is a major issue (if it really happened), and should have been reported to CASA. Frankly, it's not believable. One aircraft might have developed problems, but four of them, simultaneously? If maintenance is that bad, they shouldn't have been flying at all, much less somewhere that remote.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 5:24 pm
by stepbystep
Nuts wrote:The claimed reason for not landing at Melaleuca is about the only thing that sounds legit.


I've spoken with aviation experts and OBP experts about the Melaleuca landing option. It's not a problem if you understand the Fly Neighbourly recommendations for the area, which they have access to and should have been across.

It's all BS on their part. Question is, who in Tasmania's tourism or parks sector was aware of this group and what was their involvement.
PWS obfuscating on making a definitive statement publicly re whether a permit was issued speaks of a cover up by someone senior, for someone senior.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 8:22 pm
by Lophophaps
Losing contact with so many aircraft is serious.

The Mercury report cited above includes this:
“It was decided that the safest and most sensible option was to land on a large beach at Stephens Bay and to avoid Bathurst Harbour due to previous discussions with Parks and Wildlife about a highly sensitive area around Bathurst Harbour and Melaleuca due to the orange bellied parrot, which we appreciate.”

Can anyone advise if there is a restriction on landing at Melaleuca due to the Orange bellied parrot, or for any other reason? Is there a flying restriction on flying over Bathurst Harbour?

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 8:26 pm
by ILUVSWTAS
Lophophaps wrote:
Can anyone advise if there is a restriction on landing at Melaleuca due to the Orange bellied parrot



Hmmm I don't know for sure but given there's a *&%$#! big airstrip there with planes coming in and out regularly I wouldn't have thought so....

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 9:08 pm
by Nuts
well there is this:

2.8. Melaleuca Area Zones. Additional conditions apply during the nesting season of the Orange Bellied Parrot which breeds in the three Melaleuca Area zones located within the WHA:
a.
From 15 September to 30 April, pilots are requested to avoid:
(i)
repeated passes or circuits above the zones;
(ii)
landing helicopters within the zones; and
(iii) hovering helicopters above forested areas within the zones.


which is all I saw, more to it obviously .

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 9:53 pm
by geoskid
Lophophaps wrote:A few minutes ago I moved several posts from this topic. The post that triggered this was the subject of an alert, justified in my view. The other posts were in reply to that initial post. Please keep the conversation friendly and factual. It does not matter if there were 10 or 20 helicopters or if it was an emergency or legitimate emergency. They landed in fine weather, apparently without permission. The pictures show the times and there is a reliable eyewitness account, with the latter backing up the former. The matter is being investigated. Let's see what develops.

Moderator

You have removed my interaction with SBS Lopy, Why? It did take me a while to come back and check on the response, y'know, let the dust settle. It did take a while to build up the courage to take on the accepted narrative which was clearly in error in the conclusions drawn. Can you point to forum rules that I didn't comply with?

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 10:10 pm
by geoskid
Lophophaps wrote: It does not matter if there were 10 or 20 helicopters or if it was an emergency or legitimate emergency.


Oh , Really? You are clearly not in the habit of checking your thinking against even the most basic of intellectual standards, just like SBS. Look , have at it - there are more important things in the world to deal with at the moment.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sat 21 Mar, 2020 11:16 pm
by geoskid
Just to be clear- I don't like that they landed, we need to make sure they don't land there again, there needs to be an investigation. I accept SBs's account from his perspective. My only point is that , at this stage, going on the evidence presented here, conclusions regarding intent are premature. Intent matters. Not only for what punishment is appropriate, but also for what thinking we need to change. Surely there is someone here that understands. Intent makes the difference between life sentence and merely public flogging - but more importantly, it informs what thinking behind the behaviour needs to be changed.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2020 6:40 am
by Lophophaps
Geoskid, please see the rules, especially rule one and the last words, "But we will aim to keep it friendly!" When an alert is imade mods act on that.

The exact number of helicopters that landed will become germane if prosecutions are made. The unarguable evidence is that a group of helicopters landed on a remote beach, apparently without permission. If there was no permission then PWS rules have been broken.

PWS says:
"PWS has launched a compliance investigation into reports of the landing of several helicopters on a remote beach in the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area. Penalties apply for the landing of an aircraft without an authority and limited commercial landings are only permitted in designated areas and zones under licence as prescribed by the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area Management Plan 2016. Action will be taken if the PWS investigation reveals there has been a breach of the law."

The facts of the matter are still being established. Subject to further and better particulars about a few aspects, I'd write a prosecution brief on this. I've won a lot of cases over decades, with my first win in about 1976. Courts have agreed with me, and they have a high standard of critical thinking and law.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2020 10:57 am
by tastrax
Lophophaps wrote:Can anyone advise if there is a restriction on landing at Melaleuca due to the Orange bellied parrot, or for any other reason? Is there a flying restriction on flying over Bathurst Harbour?


There is no restriction on landing at the Melaleuca Airstrip in the Fly Neighbourly Agreement - https://parks.tas.gov.au/Documents/Fly% ... ly%207.pdf

The airstrip is outside the zone - pretty obviously or there would be no flights in at all.

2.8. Melaleuca Area Zones. Additional conditions apply during the nesting
season of the Orange Bellied Parrot which breeds in the three Melaleuca Area
zones located within the WHA:
a. From 15 September to 30 April, pilots are requested to avoid:
(i) repeated passes or circuits above the zones;
(ii) landing helicopters within the zones; and
(iii) hovering helicopters above forested areas within the
zones.

So you can land a helicopter but you have restrictions in selected zones around the area.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2020 1:30 pm
by Lophophaps
Phil, thanks. based on the information you posted there seems to be nothing preventing helicopters landing at the Melaleuca Airstrip. If so, then there is no reason to land on the beach, and the Heli biz reason is thus false. PWS can sort this out. It would be nice if PWS had a public hearing. We shall see.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar, 2020 6:27 pm
by Nuts
Yep, the document I shared.

Ok, so let's assume, if we can, this part isn't dirty, low down, lies..

Zone 1 spreads immediately north from the airstrip. These zones have differing reasons for their existence. In this case it's to minimise any impact on the nesting of OBP.

The company haven't said? there was any particular emergency (with any particular chopper). The stated situation they landed somewhere other than Melaleuca to avoid was landing the 15+ fleet there. And on the face of it, this appears perfectly reasonable?

Personally, If I saw 15 choppers land together at Melaleuca, at this time of year, I'd (think it was ridiculous) be reporting that..

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Mon 23 Mar, 2020 12:34 pm
by north-north-west
Why land? How did the incommunicado choppers know where to go to find the others? Why not get a clearance from whoever is at Melaleuca and land there if landing is necessary?

Nothing about the situation is reasonable, either on the face of it or with deeper digging.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 12:57 pm
by Nuts
Oh, they probably didn't give a second thought to just setting down for a leg stretch and slash, I wouldn't have been surprised to see a pic of a senior minister or public servant.

But what the company have said is consistent, they'd not likely have a flight plan that included Melaleuca but I could picture they had a flight plan that included checking the beaches in case someone sets down... (in the case they lost comms, if they lost comms)

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 1:31 pm
by Lophophaps
Are not companies like Heli biz advertising air safaris? Does the advertising include landings? If they lost touch with some aircraft, could they radio their position for regrouping? There are too many aspects of this which warrant investigation and explanation.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Tue 24 Mar, 2020 5:29 pm
by north-north-west
Nuts wrote:But what the company have said is consistent...

Apart from having posts up on social media about the beach landings during the safari, with no mention of any problems, then deleting the account when the complaint was made?

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2020 3:36 pm
by stepbystep
Our insipid and ineffectual, helicopter and development obsessed parks "service" have let this lot off scot-free.
They have ignored the sworn stat dec's of the two independent witnesses and accepted an entirely new type of landing excuse. A "potential emergency". Pathetic.
The only emergency in our parks system is in it's leadership. Jason Jacobi, Mark Bryce and Michael Spaulding should all be sacked. They don't deserve the great honour bestowed upon them as custodians of the World Heritage Area.
I was there, I saw the whole thing - they were on a jolly.

Please write to all of them expressing your displeasure
Jason.Jacobi@parks.tas.gov.au
Mark.Bryce@parks.tas.gov.au
Michael.Spaulding@parks.tas.gov.au

From yesterday's Mercury.

Parks and Wildlife won’t issue penalties after mass helicopter landing at Noyhener Beach

There will be no repercussions for a helicopter safari after Parks and Wildlife Services have found they landed on emergency – despite claims it looked like the pilots were “on a lark”.

NO FINES will be issued over a mass helicopter landing on a remote beach in Tasmania’s World Heritage Area, the Parks and Wildlife Service says.

Local bushwalker Dan Broun reported spotting the fleet of more than a dozen private helicopters land on remote Noyhener Beach, near Port Davey in the state’s South-West, on February 28.

Landing in the Tasmanian Wilderness World Heritage Area is strictly forbidden without a permit and fines of up to $3360 can apply per landing.

But a parks spokeswoman said no action would follow because the landing was considered necessary to “avoid an emergency”.

“The investigation found that the landing occurred due to a range of factors, including the weather, pilot experience, communications, and some helicopters not able to cope with high winds,” a spokeswoman said.

“Whilst no authority had been granted for the landing to occur, the National Parks and Reserves Management Regulations 2019 provide an exemption for landings that occur in emergency circumstances.

“The PWS investigators were satisfied there was a genuine need to land and in doing so prevented a potential emergency situation.”

Mr Broun said he was unconvinced by the explanation.

“There were forecast weather conditions that they chose to fly into on the day,” he said.

“The observed weather conditions were better that what was forecast. How can weather have been a factor in having an emergency landing?

“And how could they have become so separated in such a short period of time? It beggars belief.”

He said from his vantage point there was no sign of an emergency as the helicopters made an orderly landing.

“There wasn’t any behaviours on the beach that would indicate any sort of emergency,” he said.

“They never gathered in group … they took photos of each others’ helicopters. They appeared to be on a lark. There was no sign of distress whatsoever.”

Queensland company Helibiz Australia was conducting a “helicopter safari” around the state at the time.
A spokesman for the group of pilots said four of the aircraft had lost contact with the lead groups, so the decision was made for an unscheduled landing.

“We’ve been advised from Tasmanian Parks and [are] glad that our actions have proven

to be 100 per cent necessary for safety and that we considered all options available,” the spokesman said.

“We would like to see an approved VFR flight corridor to Bathurst Harbour Airport from the coast that could take into consideration both sensitive areas to avoid but a safe landing area that aircraft and crew can land due to weather or emergencies.

“This corridor would allow a flight track to follow from Port Davey noting areas to avoid and desirable heights to enter or exit the airport.

“We avoided the airport due to these sensitive areas in particular the Melaleuca region with the orange breast parrot breeding season, so landed on the largest open beach on the coast to do the right thing even while dealing with deteriorating weather.”

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2020 4:29 pm
by Lophophaps
CASA may be interested. The operators took off knowing the weather was bad and made a forced landing due to an emergency. Was that emergency reported to CASA? Is there a requirement to do so? The pilots seems to be very remiss. Might the Minister for the Environment is The Hon. Sussan Ley MP be interested? Does this fall within her remit.

PAWS is slipping - helicopters on the west coast, Malbena, maybe more. If PAWS approves a VFR corridor then it will be very upsetting.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2020 4:38 pm
by peregrinator
Helibiz wrote: “ . . . We avoided the airport due to these sensitive areas in particular the Melaleuca region with the orange breast parrot breeding season . . .”[/quote]

How ignorant can you get?

Yes, I agree with Lophophaps. Add the Federal Minister to the list of the three Tasmanian twerps.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2020 5:34 pm
by stepbystep
They invented the term "preventative emergency landing" because they knew if it was an actual emergency landing they would have to report to CASA within 72 hours. I exposed this event more than 72 hours after the event - any search on the ATSB incident feed shows no reported emergencies - thus the need to cover their *&%$#! with this preventative emergency line - the fact PWS have accepted that line shows a level of complicity that is in fact quite scary - my stat dec detailed the behaviour of those on the beach. They never gathered as a group to discuss their emergency - they actually strolled about taking photos and relieving themselves!!

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec, 2020 5:42 pm
by tastrax
I think this needs an FOI request to see who was interviewed and to look at the statements of every single pilot in that tour. Plus a full weather map. None of the images I saw indicated any sort of adverse weather conditions.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2020 6:29 am
by stepbystep
Thanks tastrax.

RTI requests will be made.

Upon request I received CASA and BOM data they used in the investigation. As you say the conditions weren’t a factor in the landing. PWS accepted a lie from the pilots who obviously concocted a story. They refused to give me the pilots statement or advice they tell me they were given from the Prosecutors office.

Mark Bryce who was tasked with trying to talk me down was left speechless when I pulled apart their pathetic investigation.

Lastly I requested PWS make a public statement condemning this event. They refused. The statement virtually congratulates Heli-biz on their lie.

Please write to those three useless ‘public servants’. It will take time but the truth will come out.

Have a think about the Queensland connection. That’s where the truth lays.

Re: 15 Helicopters land in the World Heritage Area

PostPosted: Fri 18 Dec, 2020 7:44 am
by Lophophaps
Might the state ombudsman or auditor be able to take action? it seems that public servants have not discharged their duty in that they accepted what are obviously lies, contrary to the public interest and contrary to law.