Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

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Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 24 May, 2020 10:31 pm

Lockdown is over, I think I might head out to Anakie and the Brisbane Ranges for a short overnighter.
So I just went to the BoM and checked average temperatures for May and June and the record minimums. Turns out to be warmer than I remember. Average minimums close enough to 7C and the record only ten degrees colder at -2.7C
So there isn't much point in taking the big winter bag plus a warm layer to sleep in and as I do need the warm layer in the evening and if I sleep in it that adds 10 C to my sleeping bags survival rating [ especially if I layer up my legs and extremities] so why not take the lightest bag I currently own or a combination of my overquilt and my S2S Traveller1?
Turns out the combo weighs less than my other bushwalking sleeping bag [ cheaper synthetic] so that is what I'll pack.
Do others bother to go through all that or do you just take a bag that you find warm enough or perhaps a bit too warm based on experience and your mind map of past conditions?
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby stry » Mon 25 May, 2020 8:18 am

Way too much thinking going on MD :lol:

I operate as per your last sentence.

BTW I presume you will be bivouacing in a manner that doesn't meet the Oxford definition of "camping" :D

The nanny state Alpine area closures will severely limit our options once things get moving again.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 25 May, 2020 8:28 am

I think so. it's why swags are so popular in Queensland in that you are only "camping" if you use a tent.
Contradictory rules
You can't use the pit toilets because they are "Shared" facilities but it is illegal to take a dump in the open if there is a "facility" there to use.
Ski season starts late this year but I won't be skiing or even doing any snow camping.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Zapruda » Mon 25 May, 2020 9:08 am

I agree with Stry. I just bring the right bag for the conditions, keeping in mind that a weather station a km away from where you might camp might not be indicative of how cold or warm the area actually is. If its colder than expected I'll either put my down jacket on, make a hot water bottle or both. If it's warmer ill unzip the bag and kick a leg out.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 25 May, 2020 9:13 am

Yes but "How" do you know it's the right bag for the conditions?
What about an area you may never had visited in the past or a new country or region?
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Warin » Mon 25 May, 2020 9:35 am

Moondog55 wrote:Yes but "How" do you know it's the right bag for the conditions?
What about an area you may never had visited in the past or a new country or region?


:roll:
Don't think there are any places where the climatic conditions are not known/estimated. Even on Pluto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Pluto (surface −230 to −210 °C, climbing to −163 °C at 30 km height then slowly decreasing)

Add that you won't get the climate as that is an average, what you will get is the weather that can deviate from the climate a fair amount. Pluto looks to have a deviation of only 20 °C... how much deviation you get will depend on where you are.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby stry » Mon 25 May, 2020 10:23 am

Moondog55 wrote:Yes but "How" do you know it's the right bag for the conditions?
What about an area you may never had visited in the past or a new country or region?


MD, if you can't wing it and get very close, I would be very surprised :D :D

The only caveat that I would add is to make sure that your guesstimate includes sufficient margin for age related reduction in cold tolerance.

I was last on BHP around a year ago. Winged it as per my recommendation. Megamid iced up inside and out, but water didn't freeze, so only around 0c. Using a bag that in previous years has been fine at those temps, but had to add clothes just to be able to get to sleep. Ended up comfortable but age was definitely at work. :(
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Zapruda » Mon 25 May, 2020 10:38 am

Moondog55 wrote:Yes but "How" do you know it's the right bag for the conditions?
What about an area you may never had visited in the past or a new country or region?


If the forecast says it will be -1c ill take the -12c bag. If the forecast says 2c I'll take the 0c bag.

If I'm out for a week with a mix of the above temps I'll take the -12c bag.

Also take in to account the loss of loft in humid enviroments like the alps. I teach the rule that for every day you can't dry your bag from condensation, you lose 1 degree off the temp rating.

Err on the side of caution and take the warmer bag.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Mark F » Mon 25 May, 2020 10:43 am

Also remember that bom record air temperatures at a height above ground in a shielded box and the temperature experienced when sleeping is affected by whether the tent is single/double skinned, under trees/in the open, in a hollow/raised above the surrounds, cold air drainage issues, tiredness level, nutrition etc. Site selection can change the temperature experienced by 5 or more degrees.

I just pick a bag/quilt for the area/season. For around knp to the blue mountains I use about 0 for summer, -5 for shoulder seasons, -15 for winter. I always have a warm layer that can extend the comfort zone.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 25 May, 2020 10:55 am

stry wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:Yes but "How" do you know it's the right bag for the conditions?
What about an area you may never had visited in the past or a new country or region?


MD, if you can't wing it and get very close, I would be very surprised :D :D

The only caveat that I would add is to make sure that your guesstimate includes sufficient margin for age related reduction in cold tolerance.

I was last on BHP around a year ago. Winged it as per my recommendation. Megamid iced up inside and out, but water didn't freeze, so only around 0c. Using a bag that in previous years has been fine at those temps, but had to add clothes just to be able to get to sleep. Ended up comfortable but age was definitely at work. :(

Yep 5C per decade after 35YO
I wish I could find a decent LW down parka to suit my wide shoulders, I need a DAS replacement that is lighter and warmer and I can't sew UL fabrics on either of my machines
Many times a vest isn't enough extra warmth
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Zapruda » Mon 25 May, 2020 11:15 am

Moondog55 wrote:
stry wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:Yes but "How" do you know it's the right bag for the conditions?
What about an area you may never had visited in the past or a new country or region?


MD, if you can't wing it and get very close, I would be very surprised :D :D

The only caveat that I would add is to make sure that your guesstimate includes sufficient margin for age related reduction in cold tolerance.

I was last on BHP around a year ago. Winged it as per my recommendation. Megamid iced up inside and out, but water didn't freeze, so only around 0c. Using a bag that in previous years has been fine at those temps, but had to add clothes just to be able to get to sleep. Ended up comfortable but age was definitely at work. :(

Yep 5C per decade after 35YO
I wish I could find a decent LW down parka to suit my wide shoulders, I need a DAS replacement that is lighter and warmer and I can't sew UL fabrics on either of my machines
Many times a vest isn't enough extra warmth


Whenever you say stuff like this I imagine you're an 8ft giant with 4ft of shoulders. Surely there is something out there? The expensive answer is a Nunatak custom job.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 25 May, 2020 11:27 am

I only have a 117cm/47 inch chest but wide shoulders to go with it and most down and synthetic clothing recently seems to stop at 44 to 46 inches with no allowance for layering. A Macpac XXXL is skin tight but an XL in fleece is loose and the XXL in my Pisa is a tight but good fit
Yes I simply can't justify $900-AUD for a Nunatak custom to my size and wants
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby GregG » Mon 25 May, 2020 3:47 pm

Moondog55 wrote:Yes but "How" do you know it's the right bag for the conditions?
What about an area you may never had visited in the past or a new country or region?


It used to be easy around here, there was a clairvoyant who, if you crossed her palm with silver, would give you a precise weather report for anywhere you wanted to go. Last time I passed-by there was a sign in the window saying they were closed due to unforseen circumstances so now, not being very antsy about weight, I just make an educated guess about the o/night temperatures and then deduct a further ten degrees. I hate being cold.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Hughmac » Sat 30 May, 2020 12:41 pm

Only have one sleeping bag, so I take that.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Hughmac » Sat 30 May, 2020 12:46 pm

I only have a 117cm/47 inch chest but wide shoulders to go with it

Only?? No wonder your knees are buggered, been working overtime for years. Must be a bugger when you're scrub bashing with a physique like that. I'm 6'2" and 100kg, and I go nuts getting hung up in snags.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Biggles » Sun 31 May, 2020 12:05 pm

The Brizzies aren't cold with cloud cover at night, otherwise frost will be a niggle, along with condensation in the tent. A 5°c rated sleeping bag and long-johns packed "just in case" is fine for the Brisbane Ranges; I have camped around there extensively, with Boar Gully and Friday's being two favourites, additional to plonking down Sutherlands Creek (rough and rocky). No need to overthink sleeping bag ratings, just pack whatever bag you have (not an Arctic-rated bag!) and thermals, plus a beanie. I also mix hot choc to drink before bed and that really helps too when it is cold.

Up here in Alice, and Panorama/Trephina Gorge (last weekend's camp) isn't exactly balmy at night; I think it was 3° overnight a week or so back. All I take is a 5°c Snowgum bag (no idea how old it is, possibly 17 years, but it lofts beautifully) and beanie — nothing else. The outer door of my Minaret is half-way open to counter condensation. I always face the tent for the sunrise as a wake-up call, and also to provide some warmth, and this works well.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 31 May, 2020 2:09 pm

Well I think even my old winter bag would be too much, after the refurb it lofts to 195mm in the foot and leg section and 175mm in the head and torso. So quite possibly a good bit warmer than when new, heavier tho due to the factory mistake. It now weighs 1260 grams rather than the factory new weight of 995g
But the S2S down blanket on its own would not be comfortably warm even if I used a bivvy sack over the top.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Kott » Mon 01 Jun, 2020 2:39 pm

Moondog55 - have a chat with ungercling mike...I'm 189 tall and I got his tall wide -8 quilt with the half zipper/drawcord. with socks/thermals I'm reasonably toasty in -1C.
I've been using it in upto +15 even...Its the only bag I use with the exception of my old Kathmandu days.

worth looking into it as it will not break the bank.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Kott » Mon 01 Jun, 2020 2:41 pm

i forgot to say that brisbane ranges can get surprisingly cold
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 01 Jun, 2020 3:06 pm

I know his work; quilts simply don't work for me once it drops below 10 or 12C even with warm clothing.
My bushwalking and ski touring days are almost over but I might get a new and lighter sleeping bag just in case, finding one cut large enough is a real problem
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Neo » Mon 01 Jun, 2020 8:24 pm

Sounds like you need a custom job Ted.
I'm 6'2 and wide shouldered but no Adonis or Obelix.
Light choice is the OMM half bag and light puffy.
In summer i may just sleep in longjohns with the puffy as a mini shoulder blanket.
Have a plus 5 bag also.
Newish cold choice is an STS Asscent 2 being comfort -4.
Am a fan of a full zip so the bag can be used like a quilt.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 01 Jun, 2020 8:26 pm

Nunatak not taking any orders again.
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Kott » Tue 02 Jun, 2020 8:17 am

Moondog55 wrote:I know his work; quilts simply don't work for me once it drops below 10 or 12C even with warm clothing.
My bushwalking and ski touring days are almost over but I might get a new and lighter sleeping bag just in case, finding one cut large enough is a real problem


I'm fairly certain that Mike can do whatever you want...

there's someone, and its too early in the morning to remember, but there's someone in melbourne who makes synthetic custom bags too? perhaps worht checking out especially if one spends most of the time in humid environments
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 02 Jun, 2020 8:58 am

That's Evan at TerraRosa
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Kott » Tue 02 Jun, 2020 12:05 pm

Moondog55 wrote:That's Evan at TerraRosa


yeah that's it
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 02 Jun, 2020 6:51 pm

Packing my gear now and I cannot find the poles for the Minaret I was going to use. So I'll have to tarp it or carry the big winter tent. Tent 3.7 kilos Vs tarp 900g so I'll need to use my old bivvy just in case. The combination of the S2S down blanket and the Nunatak overquilt [or the LW overbag] plus the old bivvy hits 2300g on my scales so it better be warm enough
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Biggles » Wed 03 Jun, 2020 10:38 am

Moondog55 wrote:acking my gear now and I cannot find the poles for the Minaret I was going to use. So I'll have to tarp it or carry the big winter tent. Tent 3.7 kilos Vs tarp 900g so I'll need to use my old bivvy just in case. The combination of the S2S down blanket and the Nunatak overquilt [or the LW overbag] plus the old bivvy hits 2300g on my scales so it better be warm enough



The poles and pegs are rolled up inside the Minaret (all generations of this tent), so how on earth could you not find them!? :shock:
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Moondog55 » Wed 03 Jun, 2020 10:59 am

Biggles wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:acking my gear now and I cannot find the poles for the Minaret I was going to use. So I'll have to tarp it or carry the big winter tent. Tent 3.7 kilos Vs tarp 900g so I'll need to use my old bivvy just in case. The combination of the S2S down blanket and the Nunatak overquilt [or the LW overbag] plus the old bivvy hits 2300g on my scales so it better be warm enough



The poles and pegs are rolled up inside the Minaret (all generations of this tent), so how on earth could you not find them!? :shock:


New shed and the tent and poles got separated when I reproofed the fly, this is a Fly-only bought here a while back and has a stealth camouflage put on it during the re-proofing .
Never came with the bag or pegs etc.
Organising the shed is taking a long time on no income and the Covid hand-out has gone somewhere else more important
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby stry » Wed 03 Jun, 2020 11:24 am

Biggles wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:acking my gear now and I cannot find the poles for the Minaret I was going to use. So I'll have to tarp it or carry the big winter tent. Tent 3.7 kilos Vs tarp 900g so I'll need to use my old bivvy just in case. The combination of the S2S down blanket and the Nunatak overquilt [or the LW overbag] plus the old bivvy hits 2300g on my scales so it better be warm enough



The poles and pegs are rolled up inside the Minaret (all generations of this tent), so how on earth could you not find them!? :shock:


Umm - yes and, umm no. The poles are only rolled up in the tent if the owner rolled them up in the tent. I have succeeded in undertaking two overnighters carrying a tent, the poles for which I had left in the car. :lol:
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Re: Determining how much sleeping bag is really needed

Postby Biggles » Wed 03 Jun, 2020 12:02 pm

OK, fair point, I admit I've made a dill of myself once, long ago, packing an Olympus, inner and fly and poles... but no pegs!! :oops:
We got around this by wrapping the guylines around overnight packs, which were left out overnight of course, with the result in the morning that animals had shredded most of the packs to get at the food stashed therein! :evil: Yup, so very many valuable lessons were learnt in the improverished footloose and fancy-free uni student days...
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