What equipment would you want to have in these conditions?

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What equipment would you want to have in these conditions?

Postby emma_melbourne » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 2:58 pm

Thanks everyone for your comments on the last post.

Question 2) What equipment would you want to have with you in these conditions if you were stuck in Cradle Mountain area in the blizzard? (Say different from your normal 3 season set-up).

I'm guessing a good 4 season tent; a high loft down sleeping bag designed for Wintery conditions down to negative 20 or something(?); and similarly high loft alpine down puffier jacket; and a multi-layer rain / snow jacket? Extra food and extra fuel for melting snow for drinking water. Crampons / microspikes?

I'd love to know what you take differently for Winter set-up?

My "set-up" that I took on the Overland Track for Summer conditions at Christmas is here..., and I'm wondering what I could logically add to this kit to make it safer for the weather turning into a blizzard? https://www.lighterpack.com/r/bz0cqf
Last edited by emma_melbourne on Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Son of a Beach » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:20 pm

My winter set up is not that different than the summer set up, as I've walked through snow in Summer too, and therefore I am usuall prepared for it at any time of year - even if the forecast is good.

I might take an extra warm jacket/jumper/fleece and microspikes, but that's about it. Sometimes I don't take gloves, waterproof overpants or downie coat in summer if the forecase is good, but I probably should. I always take them in winter, of course.

Edit after reading NNW reply...

On some occasions I have taken ski goggles and/or snow shoes and even took cross country skis one time.
Last edited by Son of a Beach on Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby north-north-west » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:21 pm

There aren't that many extra things I take in winter. Snowshoes if the area and conditions warrant. Microspikes. Ski gloves. Ski goggles. Maybe a little extra under-mat insulation, maybe my heaviest down jacket instead of a lighter one. Probably a couple of extra day's food. Make sure I start with a fresh gas cylinder rather than part used.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby emma_melbourne » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:23 pm

I've just added to my original post...

My "set-up" that I took on the Overland Track for Summer conditions at Christmas is here..., and I'm wondering what I could logically add to this kit to make it safer for the weather turning into a blizzard? https://www.lighterpack.com/r/bz0cqf

I welcome anyone's suggestions of "tweaks" I could make to it to cover blizzards. I'm wanting to go on a hike next month in Victoria. And I'll be checking weather forecast, and calling off my plans if it's not looking good. But if there are also things I can add...?
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Son of a Beach » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:30 pm

After a quick look at your list, I would suggest that a -6 degree sleep system may not be sufficient for winter if at altitude. But it depends on the person and how you use it. I have a -7 degree system and it's pretty borderline in winter at 1000m. My old (heavier) -10 system was much better in winter (but way too hot any other time)! Similarly, you may want a warmer mat than 4.1 R-value (or an extra foamie under it). I have a 5.7 R-value mat that seems to be fine for winter.

I would add some more warm clothes I think too. I usually have a thermal layer, a (THICK!) fleece layer a downie layer plus something extra (sometimes an actual heavy woolen jumper, sometimes and extra fleece)... plus waterproof layer, of course (the waterproof layer is also good to reduce the wind-chill even if it's not raining). Note that some fleeces are quit thin and not actually all that warm. My fleece layer also includes fleece trousers (mostly to wear while at camp, but I have worn them walking once or twice). But I really feel the cold. My body doesn't have much capacity to keep warm.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Petew » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:38 pm

Full waterproofs, full lightweight windproofs (like EE ones, weigh nothing) poly thermals, pro thermals, powerstretch tights, down puffy with hood,100wt fleece or equivalent, fleece hat, microspikes and walking poles,boots not runners, gaiters, buff, liner gloves, fleece gloves and waterproof mittens. Multiple nav devices, eperb, extra food and extra days. If two people, two stoves and gas bottles. Repair kit capable of fixing most stuff, ie. more than duct tape. And a Kindle...
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:53 pm

Beyond what I usually take.

- extra food and fuel.
- larger powerbank
- full length rain pants.
- insulated waterproof gloves.
- heavy hooded down jacket instead of light weight. (for camp/sleeping)
- light fleece top (for walking/breaks)
- extra set of thermals. (days of rain followed by being delayed due to snow its a bit of nightmare scenario cause gear/clothes inevitably get wet then your trudging in the cold in wet gear. so i like to bring spare themals to replace wet clothes (then shell jacket/pants goes on top.)
- waterproof boots not runners.
- micro spikes. (maybe snow shoes)
- full length R5 mat
- tent and sleeping bag for winter conditions.
Last edited by wildwanderer on Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 3:56 pm

Quick read through your summer Tassie list again.
Additional items
A warm synthetic top for active wear as well as the down which I would keep aside and dry for sleeping and synthetically insulated pants. An additional pad under the S2S as well as the sit pad
Warmer gloves [ or half finger gloves worn over the polypro liners] plus shell mittens at a minimum, also a change of dry gloves, a LW balaclava plus a warmer beanie and winter weight synthetic thermals to replace the woollens because in my experience they work better in damp conditions. Gaiters and bread bags to use as VB liners and to keep your feet drier/less wet. Basically a full extra layer of clothing that will work when wet or damp. Extra fuel plus an extra pot or cup
If you want to collaborate on a Falls to Hotham winter walk I an available from next week, you could probably put up with my slow pace for a few days. Not sure about the snoring so you would need to set up your tent more than a couple of metres away.
I still haven't packed or even written this years check lists
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Xastorm » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 5:18 pm

I just walked the Overland, thankfully I finished the day the blizzard hit. I am not sure I would like to be out in that despite feeling adequately equipped.

This is my list, I entered it for future reference. Actual pack weight was <19kg so I guess I wore about 5kg of stuff including shoes and poles.
https://www.lighterpack.com/r/dne22f

What I would potentially add to it would be extra food. That said, I carried enough to allow me to spend 8 nights out there and could have stretched what I had left-over for another 2 days if necessary.

I think the worst-case scenario would be to have to retreat at the half-way mark of any hike.. would you have enough food to make it back, allowing for walking half your usual pace? Eg. 3 days in, would you have enough left if it took 5-6 days to get out? I find I usually cover ground approximately 30% slower wearing snow shoes (in walkable snow).

I have previously hiked in Tassie with a 3-season tent but would not do that again, 4-season only. Ditto for Victoria, if heading into the high country unless just on an overnighter in good weather. The weather is just too unpredictable and I'll take the slight weight burden for the additional warmth and safety. +/- snow pegs if decent snowfall is predicted, although you can always use tree branches!

If heading up into snow-town, definitely extra gas if replying upon melting snow, or using your fuel outdoors where you have to contend with wind.

I would also amp up the warmth of the sleep system, but we all feel the cold differently. I will be investing in a warmer bag for future snow trips :D
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby emma_melbourne » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 6:50 pm

Thanks so much @Xastorm for sharing your list and experience.

Wow your timing was amazing - just missing the blizzard.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Ant71 » Tue 16 Jul, 2019 7:46 pm

I would take a PLB as well.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby rcaffin » Wed 17 Jul, 2019 8:11 pm

I cannot see any mention in your posting of a winter-rated air mat. An R-value of over 5 would be good. A DAM would be better.
A remote inverted canister stove is almost essential. Priming liquid fuel stoves tend to be very chancy in a half-closed tent in a storm.
Medium weight ski gloves and GTX overgloves are essential too. Try striking a tent which is at -5 C and see how bare hands go.
A fleece ski-hat and wrap-around dark glasses for the day time.
GTX gaiters would be nice for the snow (reduces the suffering).
A watch/altimeter can be a real boon, but skip the 'compasses' some watches claim to have. They deviate all over the place.

Cheers
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby ChrisJHC » Wed 17 Jul, 2019 10:02 pm

In addition to the items mentioned I would suggest that the most important thing to take is the right training/knowledge/mindset.
This will get you through a lot of situations with the gear that you already have.

Secondly a good book/kindle for the days sitting around waiting for conditions to improve!
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 9:26 am

Maybe, just maybe, some of my fire lighting bushcraft kit.
I think in these circumstances a great big fire would have been justified but very difficult to light; so something like the Canadians carry in case they fall through the ice in very low temperatures. But that's a 250 gram bit of kit that may never get used
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Petew » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 10:25 am

Cotton wool balls smeared with Vasoline, don't normally light fires but handy if you have to. Weigh nothing.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 10:36 am

Petew wrote:Cotton wool balls smeared with Vasoline, don't normally light fires but handy if you have to. Weigh nothing.


Pete I have tried those but under the prevailing conditions in Tassie at the time I doubt something that small would have worked, I seriously doubt that the kit I normally carry every day would have worked and I use fires a lot
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Warin » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 11:02 am

Lighting a fire in a blizzard and keeping it going? When you are on meagre rations, cold and things are wet? Aint gonna happen.

Head torch in flashing mode is much more usefull, saved for when you hear something.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Petew » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 11:03 am

There is a Terry Pratchett quote that goes something like this.....

Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life....
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby north-north-west » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 11:40 am

I'm assuming no-one suggesting fire has ever been to Cuvier Shelf. I'd like to see someone try to collect firewood up there in a blizzard.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Petew » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 11:47 am

How well does DCF burn? :)
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 12:13 pm

north-north-west wrote:I'm assuming no-one suggesting fire has ever been to Cuvier Shelf. I'd like to see someone try to collect firewood up there in a blizzard.


Do you mean a snow storm??
Obviously I am not familiar with the area but there are places here on the mainland where lighting a fire in snow is damned near impossible
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Warin » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 12:17 pm

Petew wrote:How well does DCF burn? :)


It is more a question of how much smoke it makes. In still conditions a smoke plume can be seen for very long distances. Tyres make a nice black smoke. Fresh tree leaves make a white/grey smoke... DCF? I don't think I have enough DCF to make anything other than a puff of smoke, certainly not a plume.

Making a fire in windy conditions does little other than keep you warm .. and then not much.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby north-north-west » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 12:45 pm

Moondog55 wrote:
north-north-west wrote:I'm assuming no-one suggesting fire has ever been to Cuvier Shelf. I'd like to see someone try to collect firewood up there in a blizzard.

Do you mean a snow storm??


I mean in the sort of conditions that prevailed up there whilst Mr Bowman was huddling in his tent.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Son of a Beach » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 12:58 pm

Moondog55 wrote:
north-north-west wrote:I'm assuming no-one suggesting fire has ever been to Cuvier Shelf. I'd like to see someone try to collect firewood up there in a blizzard.


Do you mean a snow storm??
Obviously I am not familiar with the area but there are places here on the mainland where lighting a fire in snow is damned near impossible


In this instance it was a blizzard. Ie, a long lasting and windy snow storm (at least that's what the forecast was for when I cancelled the walk I had planned for last weekend).
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Biggles » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 1:00 pm

Petew wrote:Cotton wool balls smeared with Vasoline, don't normally light fires but handy if you have to. Weigh nothing.


Likewise, alcohol hand sanitiser soaked in a ball of toilet paper (how big is a 'ball'? How long is a 'piece of string'??) will also burn well.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 1:27 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:
north-north-west wrote:I'm assuming no-one suggesting fire has ever been to Cuvier Shelf. I'd like to see someone try to collect firewood up there in a blizzard.


Do you mean a snow storm??
Obviously I am not familiar with the area but there are places here on the mainland where lighting a fire in snow is damned near impossible


In this instance it was a blizzard. Ie, a long lasting and windy snow storm (at least that's what the forecast was for when I cancelled the walk I had planned for last weekend).


Perhaps I am pedantic but a snow storm and a blizzard are two very different things, even if the ABC and the BOM often get it wrong.
A blizzard is when the wind picks up already fallen snow and carries it along. A snow storm is snow falling from clouds with a wind.
Having been in both many times I know how different they are
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Son of a Beach » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 2:28 pm

Moondog55 wrote:Perhaps I am pedantic but a snow storm and a blizzard are two very different things, even if the ABC and the BOM often get it wrong.
A blizzard is when the wind picks up already fallen snow and carries it along. A snow storm is snow falling from clouds with a wind.
Having been in both many times I know how different they are


I was merely going by the dictionary definition:

Cambridge: a severe snowstorm with high winds
Miriam Websters: a long severe snowstorm
Oxford: A severe snowstorm with high winds
Dictionary.com: a storm with dry, driving snow, strong winds, and intense cold

I appreciate that people may have other definitions that are in common use. But I figured that the dictionary is supposed to represent the most common word use cases.
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Biggles » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 4:42 pm

Son of a Beach wrote:I was merely going by the dictionary definition:

[...]
Dictionary.com: a storm with dry, driving snow, strong winds, and intense cold




That is exactly what I experienced ascending Mount Bogong via Staircase on the Queen's Birthday weekend of June 1988. Three of the younger members in our uni group were put in the middle of a circle of the older, bigger members all linking arms and providing protection as the wind howled and snarled and frigid snow lashed all around us (a complete white-out), not far from Tadgell Point. An hour later ... a beautiful blue afternoon sky with the departing rents of the tempest guided us to our campsite along the creek below Cleve Cole Hut (the following morning was not-unexpectedly "plain freezing!"). It's a funny thing that memory does to people — the walk or activity you remember most for being so unpleasant and testing at the time also turns out to be the most memorable! :D
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby rcaffin » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 7:23 pm

My 2c: trying to light a fire in the middle of a snow storm is just plain stupid.
Wasting the energy and time to even attempt this is equally just plain stupid.
Darwin's Law.

Cheers
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Re: What equipment would you want to have in these condition

Postby Moondog55 » Thu 18 Jul, 2019 9:24 pm

rcaffin wrote:My 2c: trying to light a fire in the middle of a snow storm is just plain stupid.
Wasting the energy and time to even attempt this is equally just plain stupid.
Darwin's Law.

Cheers
Roger

I'd rather regard it as a test of skill Roger. There are still some parts of the High Country where we can practice such skills legally and in an environmentally friendly manner. but these skills do need practice and you do need to know what you are doing and you do need accelerators. A lot of the skill is knowing when to use such and learning how to make them safely. Not much point tho if there is no firewood, scrub makes a poor fire and even thick smoke is hard to differentiate from low cloud or fog.
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