Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

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Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Joynz » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 11:34 am

I’m comparing two Macpac light down jackets. Is there a way to work out how much warmer one jacket is compared to another based on the down fill power and weight of down? These are the two I’m comparing:

1. Mercury: 650 fill power duck down. 154g of down in the jacket.

2. Icefall: 800 fill power goose down. 96g of down in the jacket. There is actually 88g of down plus prima loft synthetic in the shoulders, cuffs and chin - but since the previous model of this jacket without the primaloft has 96g of down, I'm guessing the down/prima loft combo in this jacket possibly equates to 96g of overall).
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 12:37 pm

There was an article over at BPL by Richard Nisley
650FP down is rated 1 and 800FP down is rated 1.68 in terms of warmth per weight
At a quick glance they appear to be functional equivalents, one being lighter than the other. The other thing to consider is how much of your body gets covered, it one has a hood and comes down lower on the body it will be warmer
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Lamont » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 12:53 pm

Joynz wrote:I’m comparing two Macpac light down jackets. Is there a way to work out how much warmer one jacket is compared to another based on the down fill power and weight of down? These are the two I’m comparing:

1. Mercury: 650 fill power duck down. 154g of down in the jacket.

2. Icefall: 800 fill power goose down. 96g of down in the jacket. There is actually 88g of down plus prima loft synthetic in the shoulders, cuffs and chin - but since the previous model of this jacket without the primaloft has 96g of down, I'm guessing the down/prima loft combo in this jacket possibly equates to 96g of overall).

Perhaps provide the links?
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Warin » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 1:10 pm

Moondog55 wrote:There was an article over at BPL by Richard Nisley
650FP down is rated 1 and 800FP down is rated 1.68 in terms of warmth per weight
At a quick glance they appear to be functional equivalents, one being lighter than the other. The other thing to consider is how much of your body gets covered, it one has a hood and comes down lower on the body it will be warmer


Not so fast...
The one with the larger area should have the insulation spread over that area... so if the insulation total is the same then the one with the larger area will be colder... as the insulation will be thinner to cover that larger area...
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby wildwanderer » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 1:27 pm

What will you be using the jacket for? and in what enviroment / temps?

There is probably not that much difference between the two macpac jackets. Best to try on in the store. Which one puffs up the most and the most consistantly across the entire jacket will likey be the one that insulates the best.

Icefall seems quite specialised, quite $$ and I dont really see the point of mixing down and synthetic insulation in a non snow enviroment. If its raining or even in drizzle you dont want to be in a down jacket period. Outside of very cold/very dry enviroments (eg high alpine) down is not active wear. Its for around camp/town/slow walking etc eg where you not sweating. For active wear use fleece.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Joynz » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 2:13 pm

Moondog55 wrote:There was an article over at BPL by Richard Nisley
650FP down is rated 1 and 800FP down is rated 1.68 in terms of warmth per weight
At a quick glance they appear to be functional equivalents, one being lighter than the other. The other thing to consider is how much of your body gets covered, it one has a hood and comes down lower on the body it will be warmer


They are a very similar style - both hip length with hoods. (& both more than 50% discounted at DFO.)
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Joynz » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 2:30 pm

wildwanderer wrote:What will you be using the jacket for? and in what enviroment / temps?

There is probably not that much difference between the two macpac jackets. Best to try on in the store. Which one puffs up the most and the most consistantly across the entire jacket will likey be the one that insulates the best.

Icefall seems quite specialised, quite $$ and I dont really see the point of mixing down and synthetic insulation in a non snow enviroment. If its raining or even in drizzle you dont want to be in a down jacket period. Outside of very cold/very dry enviroments (eg high alpine) down is not active wear. Its for around camp/town/slow walking etc eg where you not sweating. For active wear use fleece.


Both seem the same to me - the Icefall model has higher specs (e.g. hood and bottom draw cord, water resistant down and fabric). However, these attributes are not deal makers because the most important thing for me is overall warmth to down weight.

Use will be as a light, warm and compressible layer on bush walks (including multi day) where I need warmth during tea breaks, at camp or to boost my sleeping bag warmth. For example, in the alpine area in NZ it can get cold even in summer.

Icefall is currently on sale at my local DFO outlet for around $200 (RRP $500!).

After decades of thriftiness, I was thinking it might be time improve on the old down puffy I picked up 20 years ago for $15!
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Moondog55 » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 2:39 pm

OK I remember trying to try on an XXL Icefall They run small; very slim fit.
Not having used either I can't comment further
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Lamont » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 3:08 pm

Joynz wrote:
wildwanderer wrote:

Icefall is currently on sale at my local DFO outlet for around $200 (RRP $500!).

After decades of thriftiness, I was thinking it might be time improve on the old down puffy I picked up 20 years ago for $15!

Ignore the so called Macpac discount price- utter frog poo....
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Joynz » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 3:24 pm

Fair enough. But the price seems good - even compared to similar jackets from other brands.

I just need to work out which is warmer.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby wildwanderer » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 3:33 pm

Another option. From mont bell.

Hooded (always recommend a hood if you're using it to boost your sleeping bag). High warmth to weight, 800fill power, reasonable price. And the outer fabric should be durable enough so you don't need to baby the jacket.

https://montbelloutdoor.com.au/collecti ... parka-mens
Last edited by wildwanderer on Sat 16 Nov, 2019 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Lamont » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 3:38 pm

Joynz wrote:Fair enough. But the price seems good - even compared to similar jackets from other brands.

I just need to work out which is warmer.

Again -what about a link? Mens/womens?
They have more than one on the site.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Joynz » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 5:33 pm

Here you are Lamont. Would appreciate your insights as to which is warmer as a result of the fill power and down weight.

https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/wom ... 15581.html

https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/wom ... AU&start=1
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Huntsman247 » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 5:45 pm

Have you tried tracking the down used in the jackets? I've got the mercury & uber hooded which both are supposedly 650 fill but when I tracked the down on the trackmydown website it shows it as 800 fill.
I suppose you would have to grab the tracking number of a garment instore though. Might give you a better idea.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Joynz » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 5:50 pm

I can definitely check the down tracking.

Edit: I checked the tag on the Mercury and it has two listings - the verified fill power as 780 and stated fill power as 650.

According to the info on the website it’s related to allowing for loss of loft in manufacturing...
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Lamont » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 7:31 pm

The Icefall has some really interesting qualities. The Primaloft will not compress as well as the rest of the down so it's said. But there's not much of it.
Is there 88 gms of down plus the Primaloft? The link is not clear.
I reckon both are about the same? But can't really say. Moondog was right about the CLO though I reckon and the similarity. The warmth to total weight ratio is not impressive in either jacket though. Only about a third of the weight is insulation-rest is shell and zips etc.
I just bought this http://sleepingbags-cumulus.eu/uk/categ ... d=10&vid=1 it is 100gms of down for a total weight of 198gms as my three season jacket. This would set you back about $200 delivered. I could recommend this but not much help I know.
Were I to buy either jacket I reckon I would go with the Icefall-it seems a nice technical, but perhaps not overly warm piece?
How low would you want to use it?
I presume you are female and if the total weight of insulation is 88gms-would you get to zero-I suspect not. But don't really know. Would you get to 6-7?
You should. But between those temps where would it sit? That will be up to your metabolism, age, gender etc. You could always throw your rain coat over it for extra warmth.
Sorry not much help.
Hopefully someone else might have one and can help more than this.
All the best.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby slparker » Sat 16 Nov, 2019 10:15 pm

Primaloft isn't as warm/weight, as we all know - but if the jacket is sewn through or has large baffles and the down settles a sheet of primaloft can prevent patches of no insulation.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 7:21 am

I did research the Macpac down garments for the GD and all things considered I decided that the Arrowsmith gave the best warmth to weight ratio
There are still womens sizes available at around the same price point.
It is however a pullover which isn't fashionable but is lighter
https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/wom ... 2&start=33

They run small so I would say that you need to buy a size larger
I did have one for sale but Mrs Mudd has put a deposit on it
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Lamont » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 7:54 am

Moondog55 wrote:I did research the Macpac down garments for the GD and all things considered I decided that the Arrowsmith gave the best warmth to weight ratio
There are still womens sizes available at around the same price point.
It is however a pullover which isn't fashionable but is lighter
https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/wom ... 2&start=33

They run small so I would say that you need to buy a size larger
I did have one for sale but Mrs Mudd has put a deposit on it

The Arrowsmith. That's the one! Was looking all over Macpac site but couldn't remember it's name or that you had mentioned it. I would go this over the other two. Good ratio of down to total weight. Nice wide baffles, less stitching. Keen price for what it is I reckon. Big Pullover fan -wearing one now looking at the ocean. Only have down and synthetic warmth in pullover style. MD you are the champ.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby wildwanderer » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 9:06 am

Moondog55 wrote:It is however a pullover which isn't fashionable but is lighter
https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/wom ... 2&start=33


Agree. That one is a clear winner for weight to warmth. Pity there is no full length zipper, would make it a bit more stylish but of course adds to the weight. I would check the pertex quantum fabric instore. I have a OR Down Jacket with this outer fabric. Its quite fragile and not for walking around branches etc. Though my jacket's pertex quantum fabric is 10D. Im not sure what denier the arrowsmith has.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 9:21 am

It is a camp wear/static use fabric.
I thought it was 20D but I can't see anything to tell me that now
EDIT
12dx40d fabric according to the details section
Not really abrasion resistant but for normal wear Pertex Quantum is quite strong enough But then again if you were walking while wearing this it would be well below freezing; like maybe -20C or lower.
The lack of a zipper is deliberate to allow hands to be kept warm when wearing for an Alpine bivvy, it is only insulated on the outer, on the inside is a fabric layer with an inner pocket of mesh for drying off damp gloves and which forms the stuff bag for packing.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby wildwanderer » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 9:28 am

Moondog55 wrote:It is a camp wear/static use fabric.
I thought it was 20D but I can't see anything to tell me that now
EDIT
12dx40d fabric according to the details section
Not really abrasion resistant but for normal wear Pertex Quantum is quite strong enough


Just a note. I think there are different versions of Pertex Quantum. The 10D version I have requires alot of care. I could poke a hole in it with a nail during stuffing into a pack for example. An encounter with a twig would tear it.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby north-north-west » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 10:37 am

Moondog55 wrote:I did research the Macpac down garments for the GD and all things considered I decided that the Arrowsmith gave the best warmth to weight ratio
There are still womens sizes available at around the same price point.
It is however a pullover which isn't fashionable but is lighter
https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/wom ... 2&start=33


I wish you hadn't posted that. They even have my size in red.

*starts mantra* I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.

(It's not working...)
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 11:28 am

Yes You DO
Yes You DO Yes You DO Yes You DO Yes You DO Yes You DO Yes You DO
Yes You DO
Maybe
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Lamont » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 12:04 pm

north-north-west wrote:
Moondog55 wrote:I did research the Macpac down garments for the GD and all things considered I decided that the Arrowsmith gave the best warmth to weight ratio
There are still womens sizes available at around the same price point.
It is however a pullover which isn't fashionable but is lighter
https://www.macpac.com.au/clearance/wom ... 2&start=33


I wish you hadn't posted that. They even have my size in red.

*starts mantra* I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.
I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing. I don't need any more down clothing.

(It's not working...)

That red number has NBNW all over it. When they are gone...
It's go time!
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 12:52 pm

Red ones are warmer naturally.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Joynz » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 4:37 pm

Moondog55 wrote:Red ones are warmer naturally.

So true. In this case one was bright orange and the other a kind of Kelly green...
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby north-north-west » Sun 17 Nov, 2019 8:38 pm

Saved by the Macpac website. Logged in, bagged it, tried to checkout and it insists it can be neither delivered nor picked up in store. Good, because I really don't need it and I really can't afford it.
What I did find fascinating is that the women's was actually $10 less than the men 's. Has this ever happened previously in the entire history of retail clothing?
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby slparker » Mon 18 Nov, 2019 8:04 am

I was looking for a warmer down jacket some time ago for a proposed overseas trip and down jacket fill weights seem to be permanently imprinted in my memory - this Macpac jacket seems like a screamingly good deal. Doing a comparison on Ultralightgear UK (a website famous for reasonably priced gear) - it looks like the Macpac jacket contains the same or more down than jackets costing 1/12 to 2 times more and with up to 100g more weight.

OK UK jackets have proper hoods and the sewing might be better and they might be warmer for some other mysterious construction reasons, but this still seems like a pretty good deal to me.
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Re: Is one of these two down jackets warmer?

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 18 Nov, 2019 10:01 am

north-north-west wrote:Saved by the Macpac website. Logged in, bagged it, tried to checkout and it insists it can be neither delivered nor picked up in store. Good, because I really don't need it and I really can't afford it.
What I did find fascinating is that the women's was actually $10 less than the men 's. Has this ever happened previously in the entire history of retail clothing?

Funny as it is letting me checkout on a size 16 and I will now vacate the trolley as it would be half the size I need
EDIT
Sorry my mistake, it's the mens in red I added to my trolley
So they have at least one mens Large in Red still available
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